Are the awakened really awakened?
Recently I have heard so many people claim that they are awakened, but I have my doubts. They talk about having “seen” or discovered that the I-thought does not point to anything, and therefore all concepts are empty and even the mind is not real. Robert used to say all the time, the mind is not real, just a collection of thoughts.
Yet, if we go to the books and writings of those who claim awakening, we find incredible long treatises explaining their understanding and argumentation with others who claim to be “nothingness.”
I see many of the neo-Advaitin and Advaitin teachers of today writing long books about no mind, no self, and yet refer to Ramana Maharshi as one of their idols, even though he only talked about Self.
Go to any of the Facebook enlightenment pages, and people are arguing as to who has the best understanding post-awakening, no I, no-mind.
They all have so, so many concepts. How can anyone who has seen through the mind possible have so many concepts left over and so many moral imperatives? A teacher should be this way or that, a student should be this way or that.
I find no one on Facebook who appears really empty, except in their ability to draw conclusions and teachings about no mind and emptiness.
Don’t you see, if you see through the illusion of mind, there is nothing more to say? You see the flow of words from your mouth about awakening, emotions and consciousness is all bullcocky. It is still concepts formed from their own experience of no-I, influence by a dozen current writers on the topic from Jiddhu Krishnamurti, to U.G. Krishnamurti, to Tolle, Parsons, Sailor Bob, and many others.
Why is it that those who claim awakening are so prolific talking about their concepts of what no-mind and emptiness means, both in terms of perception, but how to live life, and even the nature of consciousness. Rather than not-knowing, they know everything.
The bone fide teacher really does not have much to say. As the Ashtavakra Gita states, he is happy, blissfully happy and Oh so lazy, saying nothing, doing nothing. Robert Adams, my teacher, rarely spoke because he knew each time he did he filled his students with concepts which later had to be destroyed. He wanted us to talk around in no-mind, letting our innate, internal and subjective brilliance to respond to the environment at every moment.
When I had my first awakening experience, I had nothing to say of my own for 11 years. What could I say that was not a lie? As Hui Neng said so clearly, “The only truth is that there is no truth; beware even of this truth.”
You see, with this understanding, post awakening, the “proper” use of language is for description and functioning in the world. Meaningful statements are, “Pass the butter please,” “What time is it?,” “How fast was I driving officer?,” or, “I only had two beers.”
A proper awakening experience virtually destroys the thinking mind, the curious and searching mind that loves pursuing knowledge and concepts.
You become empty, dumb as a rock, while your perfect, internal and subjective brilliance apprehends and appropriately responds to the world and to others. AND, you are happy! So many who claim awakening are not really happy, and why is that? Too many concepts; too many should; too much judgments, expectations. They do not rest in the happiness of no-mind, or of a minimumly functioning mind.
I wonder why Osho's awakening didn't destroy his brilliant mind.
ReplyDeleteyou put your finger on something deep here edji. if you watch the 'i woke up while cooking breakfast' teachers, they sound good and then there's nothing. it's like eating a twinkie.
ReplyDeleteyou're pointing to a meatiness that comes with true emptiness. that sounds like a paradox of course, but it's true. it is a shattering of the mind. a death.
what comes from that really feeds people, changes them. you and robert's teachings/presence are real food, like reading nisargadatta can be.
guess what? and i know i'm preaching to the choir, most people aren't hungry for real change. they want an appetizer.
i'm sure nisargadatta said on more than one occasion something like:
of course the light can be given, but
where
are
the
takers? ? ?
Don’t you see, if you see through the illusion of mind, there is nothing more to say? You see the flow of words from your mouth about awakening, emotions and consciousness is all bullcocky.
ReplyDeleteA proper awakening experience virtually destroys the thinking mind, the curious and searching mind that loves pursuing knowledge and concepts.
You become empty, dumb as a rock, while your perfect, internal and subjective brilliance apprehends and appropriately responds to the world and to others. AND, you are happy!
Thank you Edji, what a clear concise explanation!
Sounds like a J.B. challenging post. Who says Osho was awakened? Who says that after 10 years of silence and emptiness, you can use the mind as a tool, and not be a tool used by the mind? Both Robert and Ramana were able to think and respond to the world when needed, and both continued to read books and Ramana newspapers, but they had lived with an empty mind for a long, long time.
ReplyDeleteSo many on Facebook and blogs "awakened" a few months or years ago, deny they are teachers, and then teach like crazy, full of concepts, shoulds, morality, etc.
ok, yes, there's an integration that has to take place after a real deep awakening. how many years did it take ramana after his first explosion at 16? nisargadatta roamed india as a sadhu for a time. robert said he stayed in india for many years after ramana to 'not miss anything', but we don't know if that was just time to integrate back into the world after a mind shattering.
ReplyDeletesomething is fishy about people getting fully enlightened while waxing their car and starting to teach two days later.
it's fucking bullshit edji. just like you say 'it's all bullshit'.
relationships are bullshit (we never really know eachother), 'spirituality' is bullshit, the universe is bullshit.
look at it! planets, stars floating in space??? it's ridiculous, it's a sham. it never was.
yes edji, a true awakening would be like a death and integration would take a long time.
watch jeff foster if you really want the delicions twinkie. look how perfect his hair is, british accent, oh and so smart.
it's fucking bullshit. he's not enlightened. don't wait 20 years for him to realize that and apologize to his students.
“Who says Osho was awakened?” You said that Robert told you. You were pretty descriptive. You wrote how he whispered in your ear.
ReplyDeleteAh, maybe Osho didn't work through his vasanas.
Ed,
ReplyDeleteI hope you don’t mind me challenging you – this is a process of emptying myself. All my arrogance, pride, self-assurance, etc. are coming out. I never allowed myself to feel them before. I tried so hard to be a good girl all my life.
Janet B.
it's a real death and resurrection.
ReplyDeleteif someone like osho was in fact englightened, he would have had to gone through the stages of realization, shattering of mind/death and then a long reintegration.
he may have rebuilt his new persona to appeal to western seekers with his emphasis on full living, sexuality, etc.
edji, i always knew your time on the couch was special. i think it may have been a long integration.
in a sense you died and had to rebuild the whole life.
do people understand that a real seeker like you were throws themselves into the fire? that they sacrifice their life for truth?
it's powerful stuff edji and don't expect anyone to notice. real teachers are often unrecognized, misunderstood or crucified...
even with someone like ramana who had thousands of visitors by the end of his life, i assure you 95% didn't visit for life-alterning truth. they went like tourists, or for a blessing that their business might succeed, or have a healthy baby boy, or they found a nice simple old man and thought:
he's so cute! so simple! jesus,
it's all bullshit.
no one wants to transcend into the unborn.
do i?
Ed said, "So many on Facebook and blogs "awakened" a few months or years ago, deny they are teachers, and then teach like crazy, full of concepts, shoulds, morality, etc."
ReplyDeleteYes, this was often so confusing to me. Your post has brought clarity.
Thanks so much.
Love,
Joan
joan, i have to say from reading your posts over some time now you really are a clear, loving being.
ReplyDeleteand so dedicated to edji.
students like you are rare.
you make me examine my own sincerity.
thank you
john :)
John, you said, "it's powerful stuff edji and don't expect anyone to notice. real teachers are often unrecognized, misunderstood or crucified..."
ReplyDeleteWell said, John, well said!
I have really enjoyed reading your posts over the past few days. Keep sharing.
Respectfully,
Joan
No doubt, 99,9% of all 'advaita' talk is small talk, B.S., self-seeking teachers and entertainment. Being content with more concepts. Intellectually I can give you a lecture on advaita and the nature of consciousness. But it is all bullshit. In my heart I am as lonely and desperate as 25 years ago when I first read J. Krishnamurti and later Nisargadatta and Robert Adams. The only difference now is that I will not run away any longer from myself. I am happy to face myself as I am. To face my fear and pain and the occasional blessed moments of being in peace.
ReplyDeleteDennis said,"The only difference now is that I will not run away any longer from myself. I am happy to face myself as I am. To face my fear and pain and the occasional blessed moments of being in peace."
ReplyDeleteI can so relate to this. Ramana and Robert and others were anethestics that didn't work. I was sure if I tried hard enough, if my intellectual understanding was clear enough that this shitty life would somehow disappear.
Truly, I thought it would all go 'poof', and I would end up being some sort of super human. Sheesh...What stupidity!
Joan
Bingo, Edji!!! :)
ReplyDeleteLove ya!
C
Brilliant! All so true. I spent three months "there" a few years ago. And any words or concepts were irrelevant. And just funny that anyone cared about them. I sat silently for most of that time. So happy. (Happy doesn't cover it, but you know what I mean.)
ReplyDeleteI'm quite ensconced in regular life now (not “there”), and I find spiritual conversations very fun. But it's hilarious how many put themselves out there as enlightened and then judge everyone else as unenlightened and tell them how they should be and that one day maybe they will be able to see things as they themselves do. Bahahaha! :) And people believe it! (Emperor's New Clothes)
And yes, the fb groups - someone posts something that is meaningful to them (great!) and you'll have five people jump in and tell them that they are enlightened and that the poster is wrong and here's how. Hahahaha!
What I have noticed about enlightened people is that they are mostly perfectly happy to answer questions, but that they don't lurk around on fb looking for a chance to prove their enlightenment. :) But those lurkers are entertaining as all get out! ;)