20 September 2010

DIALOGUE WITH SAM--Amended and Expanded.

The following is written by someone who had a profound awakening in the J. Krishnamurti and U.G. Krishnamurti tradition, but the awakening is still partial. This person responded to my comments about his below email completely enraged, proving his non-existent ego was still very existent. I will include his full post now, my response and his rage-full re-response, which all goes to prove those who think they are beyond humanity, thinking and the ego altogether, are mostly fooling themselves. This is a very long post, but worth it. He makes a U.G. type discovery and comes to a neo-Advaitin conclusion.


Thank you very much for the reply and the books.

Well, that's the point. I'm acquainted with Nisargadatta's and other respectable advaitin sages' teachings, and I had some years ago realized what you're pointing - 'That' beyond consciousness, prior to consciousness, that many talk about but they don't have a glue about what 'it' is because it's a 'no-thing', it's not graspable, mind can't know it. And I say that this is the point because what happened to me did lead me to question even such a consciousness: is there a consciousness?

And what about 'that' that is also thought, accumulated knowledge operating in the machine, the organism, the interpreter generating the complete idea about 'that'? It’s also a concept, a thought. I don't know if I'm making myself clear... I'm questioning even that 'real me' ("YOU", as you say).

Accumulated knowledge or culture or thought or mind, if you prefer, is operating, 'running' the machine - the body - and such accumulated knowledge is the only instrument, the interpreter, there's no other instrument, and such an instrument is conditioned from the roots, then there's no way out. I mean…'you' are that knowledge, that accumulated knowledge functioning the machine as its operational system, and such a ‘you’, and memory, is what is giving the impression of a 'phantom in the machine', a 'psyché', 'soul', 'I', 'ego' or whatever you prefer to call it.

You see, there's nothing else there. The machine in the natural state would be functioning purely by means of the life's energy, without the interference of thought, which is the enemy, you know.

You see, a baby, for example, is natural, freed from all the prisons of thought. But, soon, parents and the whole society begin to give him the false notion of separation by ‘saving’ such information, the accumulated knowledge, in the baby's 'data-bank', and the poor bastard is already deluded from the beginning (laughter).

You see, then the glands, which correspond directly to the so-called chakras, cease to function, and the body is then operated by that 'operational system', the accumulated knowledge, thought, the enemy, and that is why doctors found out that people in puberty have such glands stopped. But those glands were operating and ruling the machine, the body, until the moment when all that shit - thought, accumulated knowledge – was put there. That is what is preventing the natural state to prevail – culture or thought or accumulated knowledge or whatever you prefer to call it.

 And the only chance is: if, by a stroke of luck or a ‘Divine Grace’, if you prefer, such a rubbish in the system is washed out - because it's impossible to be removed (any movement in order to remove it would only be replacement, it would be thought itself ‘cheating’ itself in order to try to keep on perpetuating itself, and there's no other instrument) -, and then a physical mutation take place - something hard, nothing related to that 'blissful' talk at all. Life's energy will retook the command, and, freed from that rubbish, the organism will then be reactivated in the natural state again. That is what happened to me, in spite of all that I have done, all the sadhana and all those things I sincerely practiced for 25 years in my life.

Then I'm questioning consciousness because, you see, what is it that is having the whole idea of consciousness if not thought, that accumulated knowledge itself? Even consciousness is a ‘data’ in such a ‘data-bank’, it’s also a concept, and that ‘data-bank’ is totally conditioned, compromised from the roots, and there's no other instrument - thought, the intellect, is all that is there, and it is giving new answers out the same old ‘data-bank’, transforming the very questions into new recycled answers, but you see, they can't access beyond of themselves, they can’t go beyond themselves, thought is the only instrument and it’s restricted to itself.

Then I realized that there's not even such a thing as consciousness at all, you see. It's thought that is the very thinking about consciousness itself, consciousness doesn't exist but as an idea, thought, a concept, and the same regarding that 'YOU', 'ultimate reality' etc.

Without that interpreter you have no way to know, to see or experience anything. Even the notion that consciousness is just a concept happening and appearing to such a 'YOU', which is supposed to be entirely beyond the world and all phenomena, is also a concept. It's that same source – thought - that is operating.

You see, I have no way to know if there's something beyond. Thought can't 'touch' 'there' and there's no other instrument. Then my will to seek was over. Search was over. You see, if there's no way out, better go out there and do anything usual than pay attention to such silly questions.

The machine, the body, is all that is there, and thought, accumulated knowledge, which is in the whole space, is operating the machine since it was 'installed' there, and there's no way out because thought itself is the only instrument and it is always doing the opposite, trying to perpetuate itself, then there's no way out. Only if that acausal 'finish' occur. Then that natural state prevail, that state in which thought is obviously still there, but only as a background, in order to make communication possible etc, but not as that previous interference anymore. And even this is that very same instrument barking out loud. It’s also a concept.

If there is 'something' beyond thought, considering that thought is the only instrument, what is that will be there to experience or realize, whatever, the existence of 'that'?

Then we have no way to know, you see. Then a kind of 'blankness', but not in a bad sense, took place. I began to lose the interest in the world out there, in going out home etc, but I'm no way 'depressive' or something as people think, on the contrary, this freshness that remains due to the end of wasting energy in a thing that doesn't exist at all, is something that changed my day-by-day without a chance to get back to that former way of life.

Questions on the subject don't arise anymore, at all. Then sometimes a few thoughts appear, I was wondering 'why is that I'm acting in a way so hard regarding all the spiritual things?', then I found your site and wrote to you. I know that it's nothing but that accumulated knowledge which is writing this and acting that way that is written here, no self here at all. But sometimes another thought appears: "and if such a behaviour is ‘bad’?", but it soon disappears, as I realized that there's nothing to the 'two sides of the coin' at all, that they're the only and same, and that there's not even any coin at all. It's all thought cheating itself in order to don’t be killed by the acceptance of the fact that it’s nothing but a bunch of concepts, an ‘operational system’, running and cheating the ‘machine’, the body.

If thought were not here, this machine would have a chance to be something extraordinary, life's energy is 'something' immeasurable, you know. But, you see, not a chance. Thought is the only instrument and it's useless, any movement that it's making in order to escape from itself is itself the same way, you know. And its uselessness is not something 'wrong', Nature could not be that failure, it's useless because there's no need to make any movement in order to realize anything because that natural state is already there, you don't need to take a travel to the place where you already are. And any movement in order to reach such a place will just distract/‘remove’ you from that place because you're already there. Then you’re sort of ‘dissolved’ in the total absence of questioning, seeking, wanting/thinking etc, you know. And this is the way I find myself from then on.

Well, this is what I realized, Sir.

You see, I don't know if those books will be useful to me, but I'll ready them, without doubt, and I thank you once again for them. Nisargadatta's "Prior to Consciousness" I know, I did read it, and that "Autobiography..." by you I was reading on your site that day, it was what led me to feel that you could be the right person for me to write to. I'll continue to read it now that you gave me the e-book version.

Thank you very much.



PS: You see, that space, all that 'data-bank' IS the only 'real I' that there is. You see, not even 'I am' because there's no one here to be anything anyway at all. You already are, period. And what would be necessary something else?

That knowledge is all that 'we' are, and there's nothing beyond. If not by thought/accumulated knowledge we don't exist, we're nothing but false impressions of thought itself. We are knowledge.
We are the knowledge running the machine. We are ‘the problem’ in the machine. Once one realizes that 'he' is nothing but that knowledge, something dead, he is finished.

You see, he knows that it was all myths, he is a myth. He not even existed, never, at all.

Body will be reshuffled by nature and the rest of mankind will be operated by that only and same accumulated rubbish, and that’s the only continuity of life that exists. And the body can't know even if it's alive, much less if it will 'die' some day.

Then what remains is spontaneous living, without fear. It's this ‘freshness’, all that accumulated knowledge can’t influence me anymore, nothing can influence me anymore.

I'm nothing but a myth and life's energy somehow took the control back and still keeps a background memory of 'me' (we’re only finally killed when we die, there’s no way to be totally free from thought while still living), then I don't even worry about anything at all.

Truly, I'm in a way now that I'm stopping even to ponder if such a totally spontaneous behaviour is 'wrong' or 'not'. Strangely, the more I realize things as they are, the more strange phenomena seem to take place. Visions, sudden absences of perception, a sort of waking-dream experience, something funny and strange too, lights, flashes surrounding my head, my body, a protuberance appeared on my forehead, and those feelings, as if a electric current was running up the spine, are occurring again, perhaps so intense as they used to happen when I was younger.

Yet, the 'I am' is 'here', but without a complement - "I am...(something)", only 'I am', only pure being. But I'm aware that even such an 'entity' is an illusion, of course. And I'm even aware of the fact that this very knowledge is also knowledge/thought itself. Then the realization that there's nothing to realize because there's no one to realize anything at all simply made me lost the whole interest in anything. This is what happened to me.

I never went to India or somewhere else, I just wanted 'That' so much, 'That' that all teachings promise in 'the end', that 'Goal', I wanted ‘it’ with all my heart, all my soul, and I almost died for two times at least due to those spontaneous events during the kriya yoga times, because I wanted it for real.

I used to live totally surrended to God and begging Him "give me 'That' if possible, please!", and many strange powers and things happened - once even a kind of lizard came and performed the 'namaste' gesture greeting me! And powers, siddhis, you know, I began to perceive them, I was wondering 'how are these things possible?!'. I could think something and that thing certainly would manifest soon, and then over and over and over again.

I also discovered that I could move some objects just by means of thought, without touching them, and I could know things about people who I had never seen before, and many other strange things.
I was totally lost too, sometimes total absence of who I am used to take place, I began to ponder if I was not suffering from alzheimer or something similar, but I could remember everything later, it was just a spontaneous, sudden absence of identity, only  pure ‘beingness’ was running the machine, without Samuel there anymore.

And once I realized that that Samuel is also a myth, the whole movement ('search' etc) ceased to occur. It's not that I realized any thing, I have no way to know, understand? If you asked me: "But, substantially, what happened to you?" I'll have to answer "nothing happened to me at all". I really don't know.

I tell you that this which is writing is just as a background now because it's a fact that I'm living all the time, but I have no way to tell you that I'm a 'self-realized', an 'enlightened' man or anything, you see, I question even such subjects, are there such things? No.



I am not sure you wanted a response to your 2,200 word statement (rant).

Over 2,200 words repeating the same point over and over, yet giving the impression of complete confusion.

Yes, even consciousness is not real. It is a concept. Even saying it is a concept is a concept.

Yes, the mind has extreme limits and nothing from it can be trusted, especially communication.

Yes, YOU is just a concept made for people that will not accept they are total nothingness. They would kill me if they thought I was saying nothing about them was real. You have seen through it all and yet are still confused. Why?

Yes, these body changes come along with visions and powers, but so what? They all go away too.

Just rest in total emptiness with its profound peace and beauty.

If it is not peaceful for you yet, it will be.

Then in that stillness you will see something, intuit something, not in consciousness, not in thought. You will watch the various mindstates, states of consciousness, body, phenomena come and go, and the knowledge will come that you are none of this. All this falseness happens to you, and you stand apart, untouched. This knowledge may be articulated by the mind through words, but it arises from an apprehension that far precedes the mind.

Already you feel the untouched part, but it is not clear why you feel it. Stay in the silence as much as possible.


SAM's Angry Response:

Ah, yes, I didn't want a response, I wasted my time (and what time? It's a mere concept, uh?) writing a '2.200 word rant' for nothing, after all, it's all concept, right?

"Over 2,200 words repeating the same point over and over, yet giving the impression of complete confusion."

Yes, I was probably completely confused, of course, or I wouldn't have wasted the fucking muscles of my hands typing and re-typing 'over 2.200 words repeating the same point over and over' to someone who can't even understand the fact - and I wrote about it, it's there among those '2.200 word rant' - that my English is not that good. But, of course, you're a 'self-realized' 'sage' and I'm just a confused idiotic bastard bothering you with my 2.200 non-sense words, uh? 

"Just rest in total emptiness with its profound peace and beauty.

If it is not peaceful for you yet, it will be."

Why worry about such things if 'total emptiness/total confusion' 'peace/war', 'beauty/ugliness', 'being peaceful' etc is all that same shit I repeated in over 2.200 confused words? The movement to 'rest in total emptiness...' or 'being peaceful' or whatever is the 'goal' is exactly what is creating the problem, this is all I'm trying to say, to explain, the understanding I have, and even after noted that I wrote over 2.200 words you still didn't get it, if I'm not wrong. Is not the very want to rest in whatever you name it or to be in whatever state you call it what is preventing the primordial state, natural state or whatever you call it to prevail? Because you people write that there's something 'beyond', something 'extraordinary', something 'blissful' in 'the end', an 'ultimate reality' or something, but it's not what I've found, on the contrary. Is not the 'ultimate reality' merely another concept? If you can't give me an answer, it's obvious that it is. And, 'in the end', you helped me a lot, and I mean for real, you gave me the confirmation that all gurus are bogus, we don't need anything, no 'goal', nothing to realize, nothing to understand, much less someone to 'follow' or even to ask anything, everything is all within us, all the power is in the man, but he silly seeks out there, as if he had not a head of his own and would need another head upon to think for him. And it's all the same, thoughts, rubbish. Search itself was the biggest thought's trap.

Thank you very much anyway.

All the best,



Tisk, tisk, such anger and rage. There certainly is someone there that reacted VERY STRONGLY, isn't there?

All the states come and go, yet there is a knower at the center, the zero point. You haven't seen it yet. You have the first stage awakening with a very angry and fragile ego still very much alive and in control.


PS: Sam has discovered a truth, namely no truth. He wrote 2,200 words about his discovery of a natural state of the body, which he accepts has the only existence, all the rest is mind and concepts. He alleges he has transcended spirituality and sees even I Am is an illusion. Yet when Muzika points out his 2,200 words only make the same point over and over, and asks whether he wanted a response, Sam gets very upset and calls me a porkchop so to speak. His anger and rage is directed at me who he calls a fake guru because I question his expression of his experience and that his experience is the final one. Yet, what are the qualities of his discovered "natural state?" No peace, no compassion, no love, just a body functioning in a so called natural state, which appears quite self-contained and not attached to humanity or other sentient beings at all.

His "discovery" is the same as U.G. Krishnamurti's and leads just to a neo-Advaita awakening and no more. But he misses the biggest step of all, which so far has not happened to him, and with this mindset, maybe never will.


  1. A good ol' nothing man, that's what I am.

  2. I personally enjoyed Sam's "2,200 word statement (rant)" tremendously. I am stuck. I am fully identified with my body, mind and feelings. I want out badly. I am lost, a hopeless case. But maybe this post adds more to the 'crack where light shines through' as Leonard Cohen has put it in one of his songs.

    Thank you,
    Confused and Perplexed Janet

  3. When you desire liberation more than anything else in life, this
    means you have begun to give up the rest of your stuff that we talked
    about. That's the only way to desire liberation. This is a legitimate desire,
    because you're not really asking for something, you are giving up the stuff
    you don't need anymore, your anger, your pettiness, your bad disposition,
    your temper, your greed, all of the things we were carrying around for so
    long. This is how you desire liberation, by speaking to the Lord within you,
    in total surrender. "Lord take my anger, take my greed, take my bad
    disposition, take my temper," and you give it up totally. Once you do this,
    automatically you are liberated.

    So you see, it's not the other way around. It's not trying to find
    freedom, liberation, self-realization, to add to what we already are. Hear
    this. You cannot add one iota to what you already are, because you are
    full up with your own garbage.
    You therefore have to empty the garbage
    can, turn yourself upside down and empty yourself out, and it is then that
    you will find that you are already free.

    Yet there are three virtues that are most important, most important
    for you to achieve, before enlightenment. Every enlightened person on
    this earth, everyone who has been liberated, has had these virtues, and
    you cannot be realized without them. The first one is compassion, the
    second one is humility, and the third one is service.

    The Three Virtues:
    Compassion, Humility and Service
    February 9th, 1992
    -Robert Adams

  4. OK, so here we have "something" of an Awakening(or maybe even a "genuine" Awakening) but no follow through onto Enlightenment which might occur were Sam to embark on a path of self inquiry?

    Or perhaps even that's no guarantee?
    (since it comes down to destiny?).


  5. Sam still believes he is the body. He has not seen that the body itself is pure concept. The mind connects together all kinds of sensations and percepts into a coherent self-object. But if he looked at his experience of his body, he'd see the body is just as unreal as thought. He talks about nature too, as if it were an object, and the body functioning in a natural state with the mind robbing the mechanism of energy through thought.

    This too is an understanding, a world view, and no more real or provable except to him. For him, body is still separate from nature, yet both, in reality are just ideas.

    Sam also presents this as some extraordinary state, yet it is a common experience among long time meditators including all the special effects. In fact, on the itisnotreal.com website I write about almost identical happenings to me during my heavy meditation days.

    Seung Sahn Soen sah also talks about this period of "magic" that happens after the initial awakening to emptiness of mind and body.

    Right now Sam is so taken by the power of his experience that he has stopped doing anything but announcing his state to one and all.

    When he first sent his 2,200 word understanding to me, it was in only two paragraphs of over 1,000 words each and in 6 point type. His message was exploding out of him and was not communicated.

    If one wants to read more about Sam's understanding, grab any book by U.G. Krishnamurti who had a similar experience. But they did not go all the way, they only partially purged "the rubbish" from their systems, but did not purge the idea of a body/world dichotomy.

  6. Could that explain then why U.G. Krishnamurti said he was traumatized by the Awakening?(as I seem to read somewhere he said though he probably didn't exactly say it was traumatic but certainly something akin to it).


  7. The same recently happened to me.

    Anyone on the path will stumble across this obstacle, so thank you Ed for bringing to light this illusion.

    The longer one stays looking outside to identify and confirm what one just experienced, the longer one will be stuck, and the more dangerous it becomes, as the illusional "final awakening" is given strength.

    This is just another endeavor from the mind to attempt to keep alive something as fleeting and impermanent as a dream.

    It is not that the experience is not profound, because it is life changing. It is just another experience that helps clear things up, and ultimately, it is not our choice about what happens after that.

    As Robert always says, we can only decide whether we identify with the experience or not. And that is the indicator one can use when in doubt- are you still holding on to that experience? If you are, inquire back within because you have been tricked.

    Sam's experience is one we can all relate to, no matter where we are on the path.

    Those "Aha!" moments are only that- moments. "Let go and let's go", as an old friend of mine used to say.

    Keep with love y'all, and keep looking within, and thank you Master Ed for your insight into the difficulties we all encounter on the way.

    And a community like this makes it all the easier, and for that, I know we are all grateful.