Jo-Ann Chin transcribed and edited the talk called Philosophy Versus Realization which was posted a week or so ago as a video. I edited it a little further and now it stands well on its own talking about the experience of awakening.

Philosophy versus Realization

What do I mean when I say you’re not real and that you don't exist, and the world does not exist?

Basically, I am not talking about philosophy. 

I am not arguing Advaita philosophy versus Buddhist philosophy of emptiness, and I am not talking about the philosophies of the past, such as about Bishop Barkley and his idealism, versus Kant’s idealism, versus the naive realism of Locke and DesCartes.

I’m talking about my experience. 

My experience is that, at one point in my life when taking a shower, I looked inside, as I had hundreds of times before, thousands of times before, doing self-inquiry to find the I.

I asked, who is it that feels the warm water against the skin of my back?

This is the pure self-inquiry that Ramana talks about, and Nisargadatta talks about, and Robert talks about, and that I talk about. 

And that day when I looked inside, I saw nothing.  There was just a vast emptiness with no center, no I.  The word ‘I’ had no thing that it pointed to.  There was only emptiness. I did this meditation thousands of times before. Only emptiness was there. There was no ghost in a machine making the body go. There was no I sense. There was no I-thought even at that moment.

And suddenly and irreversibly I recognized my true nature as emptiness.  And I also recognized that the ‘I’ had never existed.  It was just a thought form.  My identity shifted from being a body entity to identifying with the totality of my experience, no longer confined to a body, but including anything I could see or hear as well. I was no longer centered in the body, but in and on the space between all former objectgs, which now were like shadows and now appeared unreal.

If you take a look at thoughts (pause) and you can actually look at thoughts; you can actually see thoughts; they have a cloud-like existence, like what some nearsighted people call floaters—little tiny semi-opaque clouds, that once you get close to them, take over and activate the mind and create an object. It is all very interesting to watch,  but it is a subject for another talk.

None of these thoughts are yours.  No thought, including the I-thought is yours. They are borrowed. They were here when you were born, they are added on to you.  They are, as a network of thoughts, the background knowledge of the human race, as well as the specific background knowledge that you’ve gotten since you were very small. 

All of this accumulated knowledge forms your world.  And when you see that the ‘I’ does not exist, and that you see that the ‘I’ was merely a thought form, then you see that all other thoughts connected to the ‘I’ thought, the network of thinking, has that same insubstantial existence as the ‘I’.  It’s seen as a cloud that’s moving through your perception, through your emptiness.

I don’t exist, and all the words that make up the external world don’t exist.  There only becomes oneness.  There’s no longer any separation between inwards and outwards, it’s all one vast emptiness everywhere. Since I don’t exist, neither do you. The world does not exist. What I thought was an external real world is just a network of cloud-thoughts that are not mine.

In this vast emptiness, thoughts come through, and the thoughts form the external world. They also form your internal world, your fantasy process.  Your dreams, your thinking.  And all of this disappears in one momentary, enlightening experience.  And you see there’s only emptiness, and there’s only thinking, and the space between thoughts and apparent objects in the world. Just one big emptiness containing inner and outer, and I am that.

Thinking has given existence, or apparent existence, to world objects and to yourself. 

None of it is real.  The only thing that is real is your emptiness.  And you can feel it around you, it’s the Consciousness.  The totality of Consciousness. 

And the objects come and go, and thoughts come and go.  The only reality is the emptiness which stays, which contains all, which is inner and outer, which has itself a different kind of existence from the objects.

But as your inner vision matures, at some point you see this too is not true, that the totality of Consciousness is something that comes to you unsought.  The waking mind comes to you, unsought. (pause) With its objects. With its emptiness.  With its oneness.  With its totality.  It comes to YOU, and you are not touched by it.

So too does dream.  So too does deep sleep.  They come to you and they leave you.  And you are untouched, because you are beyond, totally beyond the world.  Totally beyond the waking mind.  Totally beyond the sleep mind.  Totally beyond the dream mind. 

You are a mere witness. 

Now, not a witness in the sense of being an object mind you, but a witness in the sense that it is happening to you.  And all else can be seen or interpreted as objects; but, in fact, that dichotomy is not helpful in understanding the experience.

The I Am has two aspects. The amness, which is that sense of presence, and the I, which points to a non-existent subject.

Spiritual teachers aren’t using words to convince you of a philosophy, but to try to share with you their own inner experience of the universe and of themselves. 

The act of attempted verbal clarification of terms like “real” or “unreal,” of “independent origination” or “dependent origination,” or “emptiness,” is just philosophy.

You can clarify terms endlessly and get nowhere, as they have been doing in philosophy for hundreds, and thousands, of years. 

Philosophy does not make you wiser.  Philosophy makes you more facile at the use of words and concepts, so they fit together and become more and more subtle, and more and more lost in thinking and distinctions and drama. 

What I am trying to do is to show you a way OF SEEING that is entirely beyond the drama of words and concepts, of philosophies and distinctions of real and unreal. To show you a direct perception of a different way of a different “reality,” one where there is no inner and no outer. 

One where you do not exist, and the world does not exist, and only Consciousness exists.

And after a while, you see even Consciousness doesn’t exist.  It has a different quality from YOU, who is unchanging, who is the subject. 

But, once again, these are just words I’m saying, and talking about the difference between subjects and objects creates a false duality. 

In fact, all of these distinctions have to go.  And you have to experience the world totally without any knowledge whatsoever.  Any understanding whatsoever.  Totally helpless.  Totally open. 

And this is something that can’t be taught in words, and has to be done by self investigation: taking a look at who you are, looking inside of yourself and feeling that sense of I, and following that sense of I until it either appears or disappears... and then what happens?

Then what happens to all the other thoughts?   What happens to all the other ideas? 

All of this has to be followed, and attended to, and attained, until you understand COMPLETELY your inner experience, from alpha to beta to omega--the whole thing, until you get rid of the whole thing and you shed the whole thing and you see that EVERYTHING you’ve known, until you’ve done self-inquiry correctly, is wrong.

Everything is concepts that you’ve gotten from somebody else. 

I’m speaking to those few of you out there who have always felt that there was something wrong with the world, and you’ve listened to philosophy, you’ve listened to teachers, and it doesn’t make sense.

The world doesn’t make sense.  The way people live doesn’t make sense.  The materialism doesn’t make sense.  The killing doesn’t make sense.  You see and know something’s desperately wrong, and you don’t know what it is.  And you keep looking to try to find the real substance, the reality that would make it have sense.

But you can’t find it in words; you can’t find it in politicians’ words and philosophers’ words, in Buddha’s words or Shankhara’s words.  You have to look within and find it within yourself. 

And that’s what I am trying to teach, and that’s what Robert tried to teach, and that’s what Ramana always taught... self-inquiry: looking into your sense of ‘I’, following it all the way. 

Watch the world disappear. Watch you disappear.  Watch the ‘I’ disappear. 

And what is the final arising, what is the final understanding, when you go beyond any understanding whatsoever?

This is when you are beginning to approach absolute Truth, which is no truth whatsoever; and anything I say would only be some added-on experience for you, rather than showing the way to your own experience of nothingness.  This is your way to complete freedom for yourself.

So this is my answer to Peter, and to other people who are trying to gain spiritual knowledge by reading books and understanding of Advaita philosophy and Buddhist philosophy, rather than practice self-inquiry and finding out for yourself: what is truth.

Thank you.

From Jo Ann, et al.

Announcement - Online Satsangs

We are nearing our tentative start date of Thursday, November 4th at 6:00 pm Pacific Time for Edji's Online Satsangs and would like to thank everyone for the tremendous response we have received from all over the world.

The online Satsangs will be held using the WebEx Video Conferencing program and, as a courtesy, the 'doors' will open one hour before Edji starts his talk to ensure everyone has time to get their headsets and video webcams set up properly, and to make sure everyone is 'seated' and ready for when Edji joins us.

This means our WebEx Meeting Room (http://satsang.webex.com

 

) will open at 5 p.m. Los Angeles Pacific Time (8 p.m. Eastern Time) and you can enter the meeting room anytime after that by using the password you are emailed for the Satsang.  You can find your equivalent time zone using the World Time Clock at:  http://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/

 

We ask that you try to show up at least 30 minutes before the Satsang starts (no later than 5:30 p.m. PT) to ensure you have no audio or video problems.  You can then mute your headset and pause your video to do something else until the actual start time.

As with all Internet technology, we have had 'glitches' along the way, and have discovered that some emails that were sent to us were never received, or emails we sent were never delivered... particularly when we had the Yahoo Group.  If you have not been receiving emails from us about the WebEx training sessions and test WebEx Satsangs with Rajiv, then you are not on our Satsang email list.  

We would like to ensure we have everyone's name who is interested in attending a Satsang so if you have not received emails from us, but would like to be on our Satsang email list, please contact us at:  Edji Satsang Administration <satsang@eastlink.ca> and we will put you on our Satsang email list and arrange for you to be trained on the WebEx Video Conferencing program.  

Note:  We already have more than 25 people registered to attend each Satsang so are developing a 'waiting list' to fill any cancellations that will enevitably occur each week.

Please do not worry if you cannot attend a Satsang:  we will be video recording all sessions and posting the videos, and related mp3 files and transcripts, on our official Satsang website at:   http://w

ww.WeAreSentience.org

 

 

Thank you again to everyone for the tremendous response, and to Edji for making this possible!

Edji's Satsang Team

Janet, Jo-Ann, Tina, Chris, James & Nathan

Jo Ann Chin is a spiritual workaholic who has been doing all the work (lately) setting up online satsang, setting up sites to download videos and MP3 files. There are no openings for Satsang now, but you can get on a list by contacting her at: jnanamarga@eastlink.ca.


The new website for all video and audio files is WeAreSentience.org.


This will be the website of any nonprofit organization we might set up for animal rescue work or having an ashram in the future.

Satsang is starting soon. I felt a need to practice before a camera. The below video is an expansion of the previous body-emptiness meditation into self inquiry within the Void. Watch and participate just once. In the future, play it as an MP3 audio file and have it repeat three times for a full hour of lying or sitting meditation. Later, we'll redo this meditation showing students in half and full lotus doing these meditations.


If you want, have a second CD or MP3 player playing kirtan or bhajans along with the audio instructions quietly in the background.


In me, this always produced various levels of ecstasy and deepening meditations. While quiet you are watching all aspects of your inner experience, especially the I-thought, and the I-Am sensation. Some describe it as amness alone, but the experience has both an I and an am, which can be separately recognized and then found as one. Amness is the sense of beingness or "presence," while I points towards the non-spatial aspect of the subject.


Of course, the most dynamic meditations are the Zen meditation retreats such as at Mt. Baldy. We may organize one there some day. Now that is an entirely more advanced level of practice nearly impossible in everyday life in an urban environment.

This exercise however, gives you a direct insight into having no self while still having a practicing mind and ego. It introduces you to the Void.

With this video, only pay attention to the voice instructions. Be relaxed and sitting or lying when you begin to play it.

New video coming tomorrow. It is a 20 minute guided meditation that starts with investigating the emptiness of the body, and progresses into full self-inquiry.

Conversation with Pradeep Apte

A few hours ago, Nisargadatta Gita author Pradeep Apte called me from San Diego where he is visiting his daughter until Friday. He had been sick since he came to the States two weeks ago. He had been planning to come to LA, but because of his illness he is bypassing LA and going directly to attend a conference of some sort in Northern California. We talked for the first time today. I can only say that neither of us saw even a hair's breadth of difference between how we saw the world and spirituality.

He bemoaned how the neo Advaitins had turned spirituality into a money making business. We agreed upon the need for practice and the essence of practice was emptiness. We agreed that the best quality one can have going into the attempt to realize truth was humility. He also stated that one has not attained anything if one has not developed compassion and love for all others.

Below is a guided meditation on the emptiness of the body. The body cannot be experienced as a totality. You are aware of the body with the tactile senses, only where it touches something, or when there is some pain or dysfunction inside, such as sore muscles or joint pain. Looking within with eyes closed reveals mostly emptiness in which some tactile sensations are loosely positioned, and which do not in any way create the outline or form of the body.


In fact, the body is mostly a visual artifact, that works together in the mind to create a composite body image which we usually take to be ourselves. With some practice you can simultaneously experience both your own inner emptiness and the historical body image you take to be yourself; the image will be seen as floating in the inner fantasy world of empty void filled with other insubstantial forms.


With the eyes closed, we take a look at how we experience the body in the below video. I was aware of the time limitations of the Youtube video format, so rushed the meditation. It should take twice as long. However, even in this rushed format you should be able to get a taste of the emptiness of some of your "inner" experiences.

Meditation on the Emptiness of the Body

It is fairly obvious that Peter never intended any polite conversation. All of his comments from the beginning were derogatory and angry. However, we are going to start Satsang soon online, and this gave me the idea I should practice a response with only a camera to talk to. This is a very different experience from writing answers. I do notice there is a lot of latency in this video with the sound lagging the video by a fifth of a second. Anyway, the first, very boring talk by Edji:

Philosophy versus Realization

I just saw this you tube video of Rajneesh where he talks about philosophy and knowledge very similarly to what I said above. He says he is not a philosopher and he is not about philosophy, words or knowledge, but about direct seeing. However, he still takes the world of consciousness, which he calls reality, as "real." Is is a rather superficial interpretation, but one Robert was also frequently guilty of because he was not talking to advanced students.

I don't know where the recent influx of philosophers has come from, but I want to emphasize the "ultimate" truths  of Advaita do not flow out of a more accurate analysis of words, concepts and definitions. This only changes the area of argumentation and makes spirituality a subset of philosophy. But awakening has nothing to do with correct analysis of terms such as real or unreal, which is only using the intellect. We are talking about an entirely different way of perceiving reality and ourselves. As long as we think we are real, we are trapped in a real world and in concepts. I am saying you have to go beyond the mind altogether. 

Below is a comment from a philosopher who wants to challenge my use of unreal. I then follow with my explanation of the defects of his argument from a spiritual point of view as opposed to a philosophical point of view.

PETER R:

I think false problems arise when a teacher uses the world "real" without explaining clearly what they mean by this word. In the Indian philosophy of advaita, the word "real" means that which is permanent, which does not change. In this sense, the world is not real.

But the common Western meaning of the word "real" is entirely different. It simply refers to objective experience, something perceivable and verifiable by the senses. In this sense the world is "real" -- we have an actual "real" experience of it, even if we haven't yet fully investigated the true nature of that experience.

Similarly with the notion of the dream. Upon awakening from an ordinary dream, we are aware that the objects that appeared in the dream have no existence independent of our own awareness of them. In this sense, the dream objects are not "real". But our experience of these objects, the experience of the dream itself, was real in the sense of being a "real experience", or a "real dream". We really did have an experience which we identify as a dream. In this sense, the dream is "real", while the dream objects clearly have no independent existence.

It is more useful to use clearer, less ambiguous terms, such as "independently existing" (which is not true of any apparent "object"), or "not having independent existence" which, upon deep investigation, is the case for all apparent objects of experience.

Thus the main problem with the whole "real"/"not real" dichotomy when it is discussed is that people mean different things by the world "real". If clearer terminology is used, the whole so-called problem disappears.

When the world "real" is used in the context of a discussion of advaita, the most essential thing, from the very outset, is to define clearly exactly what is meant by the world "real".

ED:

Peter,

That which is real and unchanging is what? The subject? The totality of consciousness? What is this unchanging you are talking about?  You have just changed the focus from the word real to defining that which does not change. What is it? Is there anything in the inner world that does not change? Is there anything in the outer world that does not change?

"Common western meaning" of real is different, meaning perceivable to the senses, perceivable and verifiable? What does that mean? Again, you have shifted real to a new set of concepts of perception and verification. A chair verified by a second perceiver? A tree falling in the forest with no witness at all? Was that a real experience? Is the tree real? Parental love I feel for a child, for whom no one else feels. Is that real because it is subjective and not verifiable to a second person except indirectly? Is an atom real? Are subatomic particles real? I can't verify them directly, but only indirectly through very complicated experiments and mathematics and analysis of vapor trails? What about string theory?

Neither of these two shifts help clarify anything.

Are you suggesting all percepts, experiences, concepts are real from a western viewpoint, and that is the framework a teacher should use when talking to Westerners? Shall we say the "common" western viewpoint that all objects are real if verifiable, but the advaitins don't take that as reality? How has that helped a deeper understanding except by explaining there are different ways to use the term real?

You say we wake up and say we had a dream, but the dream objects were not real? I think we are saying something different. We are saying the dream world is of a different quality of consciousness and existence than what we perceive in the waking world. We give a higher quality of reality of the appearance of the waking world. What about deep sleep? What is your experience during deep sleep? Are you saying the deep sleep state is unreal because we do not remember experiencing anything in that state?

Is it helpful to use a less ambiguous term such as "independent existence?" I think not, as that is certainly not unambiguous as a term; what does it mean for an object such as a chair? That is does not exist without a witness? This is naive idealism, and certainly most westerners would say the chair existed even if not perceived by anyone.

So constantly shifting explanations and clarifications to different sets of concepts you feel are less ambiguous, really hasn't helped anything. You are merely delving more deeply into philosophical explanation, which gets more and more subtle and further away from the root experiences of spiritual awakening which has no dependence on concepts whatsoever.

I do not see any "real" verses "not real" dichotomy disappearing, so much as shifting to different concepts using your "less ambiguous" terms.

To understand what Robert, Nisargadatta and I means by "the world is unreal," and "You don't exist" you have to have an awakening in the sense that your mind disappears, and YOU, then see that all of the objects in the world depended on the existence of concepts to make them so.

One "sees" that all forms are empty, and the emptiness or void is the primary percept within which objects no longer exist. The forms disappear. You shift identification form the world of appearances, to the Void nature of everything which is an "internal" or subjective state. The outer state is seen as false. The inner void is also seen as false because there is no longer a distinction between inner and out worlds. The is only one consciousness with no inner and outer, no me and no world.

THIS IS A TOTAL SHIFT IN HOW ONE EXPERIENCES EXISTENCE, AND NO PHILOSOPHICAL ARGUMENTATION HELPS TO ATTAIN OR EXPLAIN THIS STATE.

Later, one sees that the entirety of consciousness, the world and I, form and emptiness, are like the dream state that comes and goes to you without touching you, without having anything to do with you. You are entirely beyond and apart from the world of appearance, or deep sleep. You "see" (or better "apperceive") directly, without conceptual analysis of the real or unreal

Until you have experiences like this you are merely arguing Eastern or Western concepts of ontology or epistemology, and there are thousands of philosophers for every awakened being who does not discuss philosophy, but talks about his or her own reality and experience. You must be willing to leave all concepts and understanding behind to enter this world. You can otherwise argue philosophies of "realities" forever, and not be one wit closer to understanding the true nature of you.

From facebook someone posted:


"I see now that physics is of no importance, that the world is illusion." ~ Heisenberg


Ed's response:

Actually, the emptiness in and around atoms is only a concept in physics. Most of science is just concept. Have you seen an atom? Have you seen the space in atoms? Therefore, what is more real, the illusion of an apple being eaten, or the illusion of an atom? Ditto the "absolute truths" of mathematics. Have you ever touched the concept of a set, or a ring, or a number 17? All are concepts--mind.

At least the illusion of an apple or another person gives the appearance of the personal, unlike scientific concepts, and can feed the apparent body.

Response to Ed:

You can see atoms nowadays, just not the particleshttp://www.insidescience.org/research/first_detailed_photos_of_atoms

Ed's response:

Ed Muzika No, you are not seeing an atom. You are seeing the electronic representation of an alleged electron field around an alleged atomic nucleus, through the magic of an electron microscope. It is an interpreted image, shone on a CRT, not the atom itself. It is still all theory, mind stuff that seems to predict the way the illusional world acts under various conditions. It is still all concept.


Actually look at the two images that purport to be detailed views of an atom.


Both show round black field with blobs of blue in them. One has a larger blue blob, the other two smaller ones. This is supposed to be a representation of possible electron fields around the nucleus, which is unseen, and in that nucleus are supposed to be protons and neutrons, themselves made up of smaller, more fundamental particles, and those, in turn, composed of "strings."


100 years from now we will have a different set of concepts about the unseen world of atoms, which in that future, will be regarded as the correct theory compared to the "quaint" theories we had in the 21st Century.


Everything in existence is conceptual in nature, name and form, superimposed on emptiness, the void.


Form is none other than emptiness, emptiness none other than form. Feeling, thought and consciousness itself are like this. --Heart Sutra

Another awakening Experience:

Hi Ed,

Two nights ago, as soon as I woke up from deep sleep, the sense of I remained the EXACT same. Meaning, when I woke up, I didn’t remember my name or where I was, but the sense of I did not change from sleep to waking up, and there was not even a second that passed where I could feel a transition of the I. Because usually, there is a delay from the time I wake up to the time I start to sink to my usual I. But this time, it was very clear and calm. It is very peaceful. This I, has remained.

During waking state, the I is very clearly ‘felt’. Everything in front of me is happening on their on. I have nothing to do with it.

In today’s meditation, nothing other than joy happened. As soon as I sat, I started sinking. I felt my heart beat faster and faster. Then, all I can feel was joy. The joy was tremendous that I even had tears. There was nothing to see. In the previous times, I was sure to see objects and other things. But this time, there was no effort on my part and nothing to see. It feels like I am or I was ‘in’ my joy. I know it sounds strange. But that this how I can describe it now.

Thank you,

Do you see you are far beyond (or before) anything in the world, your body or mind?  You are untouched, untouchable, the real witness who has no existence herself.

Response:


Yes, I definitely see that I am beyond the world, body and mind. Now, I am slowly understanding your words and teachings. And I will try to maintain this and see where it takes me.

More importantly, all this was because of your grace, teachings and love. You have a very strong grace.

Thank you so much for this joy.

Umah




Response:

Now she needs to maintain it or repeat it if she loses it, until it becomes her identity: the identity of the absolute, or the final and true witness. Even this concept gives way after a while, with no absolute, no witness, no understanding. One has passed through and understood the whole thing completely and dropped it.

AMENDED NEW MATERIAL:


Namaste.

I am Madhurananda from Tiruvannamalai.

Some friend had sent me your website link, and wished me to read it, and give my opinion. But I could not. Also, did not have so much enthusiasm to read. Since few years, I have almost lost any inclination to read, as I can just remain quiet happy with myself. Some how his repeated query made me to read many pages of your website.

I found you are disciple of Robert Adams whom I love very much. In fact it is because of this I have mentioned The Silence of the Heart for further reading in my book Effortless Meditation.  

I liked your experience of Peace. I am sure that it was a genuine experience, and that gave the pull to read many other parts of your website. I have also read many pages of Autobiography of a Jnani. Your disciple Rajeev is very special. In fact, I have written mails to him.

May I ask you few questions for curiosity?: You are in a natural state? You feel that this is the same state that of Sri Ramana where he has established himself irrevocably? Can you say there is no difference between me and Ramana (not in physical sense)? How old are you? Do you have any plans to come to Tiruvannamalai?

Hope you don’t mind for asking these. When I feel people are deeply spiritual, I ignore some formalities and become casual.  

Love, Peace and regards,
Madhurananda

MY REPLY


Dear Madhurananda,


I too do not read anymore. I understand you completely in that.


As to my state, I cannot say whether it is natural, like Ramana's or anything or anyone else's states. All that I can say is that I feel completely at home, and aware that the universe revolves around me and is merely an appearance to me, who lies beyond the appearance. As to what that is I cannot say except THAT is you also.


As to my teaching, it is not me, the words flow through me, such as my dialogues with Raviv. The energy to express arises within me, then passes through me, but I am not touched. You might say my mind is Robert's mind. I didn't know Ramana; I did know Robert.


I am 68 and feel no movement to visit India. I rarely go more than 10 miles from where I live. I have many animals that I take care of and can rarely leave the area for more than a day.


Thank you for your inquire,


Love to you,


Ed


TO ME:


Dear Ed Muzika,

Thanks for your answer and I am very happy to read your words,  that you are at Home and universe revolves around you.

You are at Home 24 hours, all the time includign deep sleep?

I have a deep veneration for you. After all we are all looking forward to go home directly or indirectly.

Love,
Madhurananda




MY REPLY:


Madhu,


Rajiv sent me your email.


Email to Rajiv:

Dear Rajiv,

Namaste.

I agree with whatever you wrote in this mail. Thanks for your sharings. I am in no way under the illusion that 'me' or ego is gone in way, or whatever i am experiencing is Reality in ultimate sense. As long as wish to be at Peace is there, even if it is not expreinced as effort, it cannot be final state. Because of Ramana and U. G.  in no way i can compromise with anything that can happen on manifest level. All these will go one day, and manifest is too brtillte to be taken permanent shelter.  

I am very happy to read that you have gone beyond the realm of ego once for all. Yes, i am very, very happy. There is natural and deep appreciation for the those who have transceded the maya.

For time being i am  being intensely carried away by that where there is no concerputalisation, no hankerings. It pulls me deeply. I am wide awake and undivided in that state. I know for sure it is there where ego can disappear forever. 

I am very happy to be in touch with you. Will come back again some other day,

with Love and regards,

Madhurananda

ED:


You never kill the ego nor does it die. It disappears as you say. You see it never was. It was and is just a collection of thoughts happening to you, who is empty, spacelike, a ghost so to speak. It is not a state to be won, but an experience of the emptiness of all forms and thoughts.


To know this state of identity with the emptiness instead of forms, requires just constant inner reflection and good acquaintance with the Void, and recognition that you stand apart not only from all experiences in the world, but also the void.


So don't hold the illusion that the ego must die. It just never existed except as a collection of thoughts loosely tied together, and with which you identified as a thinker. The thoughts are not yours. They comes from outside of your awareness, appear and then disappear.


Everything appears and disappears, all states, forms, relations, objects, thoughts, ego, but there is a knower of all this. Who is that? Find that.

Dear Ed Muzika,

Some friend sent me your blog link today.  I was a little surprised that you have already put my mails in your blog. Usually, people ask before doing so. However, I am fine with it. I did want to mention that your mail does not contain answers to my questions to you, but to some questions that you might have assumed  on my behalf. That also is quite ok. It is fun too. This world is perfect as it is. It is not an examination paper. So nothing to be bothered. 

ED: I did answer all your questions except about feeling at home in deep sleep. I did answer implicit questions you sent to Rajiv which he sent to me about killing the ego. You, like many in the Ramana tradition, think one who is awakened must be conscious during deep sleep. But that is a property of waking and dream states. If one were conscious or aware as in the waking state, that would not longer be deep sleep.


The deep sleep state is marked by no cognition and no memory. That I exist now or during deep sleep is an intuition or apprehension when the thinking cognitive mind is active. In that state one can "remember" the experience of deep sleep and its qualities. Nisargadatta and Ramesh were quite clear they were not aware during deep sleep.

What you discover is that all of this is part of the illusion of being a body. 


When you no longer think you are a body, you see that all mental states, including the waking state with its bodies and the world, and phenomena come to you and pass over and through you like clouds and do not touch you; you are both beyond them and prior to them. But you are trying to understand from the point of view of being a body, of which you are aware only in the waking mind, the waking dream. Therefore you ask if I am waking conscious aware in deep sleep. What would be the point of that and what would it prove? We are all beyond all the states.

MADHU:

However, I would appreciate if you add this mail of mine too in your blog. In case you are not comfortable in including this mail to you can kindly remove my earlier mails along with your answers.


Ed's Comment: Madhu is uncomfortable having his emails posted that talk about his own states as opposed to where he is asking Rajiv or me about our states. And, he wants to advertise his book as part of his response. If I don't feel comfortable posting this response, he'd like me to take all his posts down.

Here are my views on your reply to me:

You say, ‘you never kill the ego’:  You are right. When we say, ego should be killed, it is only to convey that one should realise that ego never existed. When sages say ego/mind should die, it is never meant as instruction to fight the ego/mind, then destroy it etc. Such approach will create endless mental turmoil in the name of sadhana. Fighting will only strengthen the mind as much as it being superficial and unaware. Mind should be annihilated means all psychological suffering, which can be created only by thoughts (and thoughts alone), should disappear.

We also should be aware of saying: ‘there is no ego, ego never existed’, or ‘ego should die’ etc. All these can be pure play of ego. We can write a big book on this issue of ego, but does it help in our pursuit for happiness or peace?  To tell you honestly I am not the least interested in this kind of verbal descriptions.  Any intellectual person who has read a few books on Advaita can write about these things. Intellectual gymnastics is a sheer waste of time.  If there is anything that touches me deeply, it is insight, and the dedication that one makes to the insight. Of course, if one is a sage, where even the person having insight is absent, then naturally such a one captivates my heart. 

Thanks for your advice on the Sadhana. However, I do wish to add here that I have nothing to ask any one regarding Sadhana. Nor had I   asked Rajiv anything on this front.  Even if I believe some one is a sage, still I do not have any questions to ask as far as meditation, Sadhana etc are concerned.  Out of sheer grace of inner Sadguru, I have discovered the art of being still. I personally feel highest Sadhana is to remain utterly still, where one does not entertain thoughts in anyway, in terms of focusing, concentration etc. If one does not engage in conscious thinking, automatically chattering/unconscious activity of the mind slows down. Then one remains in the state of being composed, undivided and happy. 

As you wrote in your mail, it may be necessary to reflect etc for someone who does not know how to remain in the state of dynamic stillness. However, I do believe as long as one engages the mind in thinking, deep unfathomable Silence remains elusive.

You asked me to find, ‘……..Who is that?’ I feel when one is in the state of deep Peace automatically the answer will dawn. That is how I understand by enquiry.   If some one tells me, being still does not lead to enlightenment, and one has to go on asking 'Who am I?'  I do not care for it. What I do know for certain is that when you have learnt the art of being still, one has learnt the art of being in a state of undivided attention, happy, and at home. Deep dynamic peace starts enveloping you. You will be simply carried away by it. If there is any way to experience supreme Peace, it is in being still. This is my experience and that is enough for me. I also wish to add here that that is the essence of my book Effortless Meditation, Published by Yogi Impressions, Mumbai, 2010, 3rd Edition. 

If I come across some one and says that I am enlightened, I may become curious and ask some questions regarding his state (I am aware word ‘state’ is not the right word for enlightenment, but there is no other appropriate word). However, I do know for certain, that whatever the sage may answer, unless one himself attains the state of a sage fundamental questions of life can never satisfactorily be answered. No one who is ever born in this universe can utterly satisfy the other through verbal answers. On the level of ego, there are no real answers. On the level beyond the ego, questions become meaningless. This is the paradox. 

Peace,

Madhurananda (Madhu)

Before I started my "official" search for enlightenment in 1968, I had already read Ramana, Yogananda, and tons of Zen books for years. Bassui was an 12th Century Zen master whose koan was, "Who am I?" I had practiced that meditation and collected a bachelor's degree in philosophy. I was clueless. I did not know what enlightenment was, who I was, where I was going--nothing.


One question sustained me: What was the ultimate truth? I knew it was not found in philosophy, which could only talk about it. I thought it would be found in some sort of profound experience, but what that was escaped me, and none of the books revealed what that awakening experience was. What they mentioned is what the newly enlightened monk said or did; there was nothing about the experience itself, and the only way pointed to getting there was self-inquiry. That question was characterized by "Who or what am I?" in its thousand forms.


Subsequently I had two major awakening experiences and hundreds, maybe thousands of small ones. No matter. No matter at all!


So, do you wonder what I supposedly have and you don't? Do you want validation of your own experiences? Do you want me to tell you whether you have experienced Turiya or not? No matter. It does not matter because Turiya is always part of your experience as are all other levels and strata of consciousness. They are always there in the One consciousness. Exploration differentiates and explores those levels. Again, no matter. Just more experiences and knowledge.


The experiences are important because they keep you involved. No experiences and you think you are wasting your time.  But what do those experiences mean---if anything? (And they mean very little.)


There are many kinds of samadhis where you obtain unity with some layer or another of conscious experiences. Is Samadhi important? Yes and no.


But the most important experience is not an experience, but the recognition that all states, samadhis, waking, dreaming, sleep, understandings, emotions, attachments, ideas, possessions, etc., come and go TO YOU. YOU are the central point of this existence. All happens to you. Without you as an observer, nothing would exist.


But who are you? Isn't that the rub? How do you find out that ultimate level in you? By reading books? By listening to Mooji or reading Ramana? Of course not. They can only point the way, and that way is to look within and claim your own identity as that which is beyond the world. It cannot be conceived of, described or passed on to another. One sees it only by him or herself, either through trust in the method of self inquiry, or trust in the guru.


Look how lightning quick Rajiv's liberation came. He trusted in his guru, did not argue, did not compare teachings of Ramana to Nisargadatta, or ask about Langford's method. He only listened to his guru. He gently asked for guidance, but it did not come through me. The guidance only appeared to come through this individual he called Edji, but, in fact, had nothing to do with Edji, nor Robert, nor Ramana. Where the power to lift illusion comes from, I don't know. It comes when it wants to.


I really have nothing to say as to what is posted on this site. It comes to me and acts through me, and does a far better job than I ever could. For months now it has been acting and talking about animals and compassion, because that is what has been presented to me as a body mind day by day in Los Angles.


If you guys were here, I'd be hearing your stories and wants, and the blog would reflect that. 

Although some readers have complained that I should write about animal stuff and Infinity elsewhere, and reserve this site only for talking about going free, my life with Robert, or associated ideas, in the end, this is my blog and I write about what is important to me.


For the second time in six weeks we animal lovers and rescuers in Los Angeles have scored a huge victory against forces that would kill animals.


About a year ago a lawsuit by Urban Wildlands ended with a judges order that prevented the City's Animal Services Dept. helping residents of Los Angeles feed, trap, neuter/spay cats, and then return them to the environment. This is called TNR. 


Unfortunately, in their zeal, the actual street level enforcers of the laws at Animal Services were telling people that feeding feral cats itself was illegal and they could go to jail and be fined $1,000.


This was all bull. They cited a law against feeding coyotes, saying if you left food out for feral cats, the coyotes could get it. Therefore, you'd be breaking that feeding law, and could be fined and jailed.


However, I pointed out to the head of Animal Services that that was not the intent of that law. The intent was to not feed and attract coyotes leading to dangerous run ins between people and coyotes.


Animal Services personnel across the city were also banning feeding homeless cats under another law called the kennel law. However, if the person feeding ferals was also getting them fixed and adopting them out, they were exempt. There were other exemptions that the department was not telling people about. They either did not understand the law (which is not that complicated), or they were enforcing it out of spite.


With the help of an Animal Services cat-friendly Commissioner, the new General Manager, Brenda Barnette, admitted her own people didn't understand the judges ruling and she was now sending out an email to enforcement personnel stating that there was no ban against private citizens feeding feral cats.  


We won!! The lives of well over 1,000,000 homeless and feral cats was in danger due to the harassing and incorrect enforcement of the wrong laws by Animal Services. They are no longer in danger. Dealing with this problem has eaten an enormous amount of time I could have been working on this blog and setting up online Satsang, and I apologize.


I should mention that the new GM, Brenda Barnette is an Advaitin, although an advocate of Eckhart Tolle. She is on facebook. Say hello sometime. Perhaps that is why enforcement is changing in Los Angeles. Advaitins working together, or as Seung Sahn called, it, "Together action," acting through "correct understanding."

Don't Check Your Mind and Progress

You are asking for endless trouble if you keep asking what your experiences mean. Stop checking your progress!


Daily I get many emails from students who want to know what their experiences mean, or whether they have experienced Turiya or some other significant experience.


Let me ask you, "WHAT DOES IT MATTER?" Does having one extra bit of knowledge about where you are help you are all to go beyond all understanding to freedom and total emptiness? No, it just keeps you trapped in the cognitive mind that is trying to figure everything out, putting everything into a conceptual pigeonhole. But satisfying the mind's need to understand and know completely blocks going beyond the mind and that perticular experience you are questioning! Do have come to a dead stop with no more movement possible until you let go of the question and the experience.


You can't get to freedom through conceptual understanding.  You have to lose your mind entirely by doing non conceptual things, like abiding in the sense of I Am until the mind and body disappear. This is the first glint of freedom.


Eventually even this will drop away, but you need to stop depending on mind. Instead you need to trust the method of self-inquiry, more properly described as abiding in the I-sense. No experience you have on the way is worth talking about. When the big experiences come, they are self-explanatory and need no one to interpret or check progress. 


Towards this state of certainty is where you should be aiming, and that is by just submerging in the I Am, or I sense. All the rest is conceptual nonsense. Be courageous. Go without words, questioning. Just keep looking at the I or the I-sense. Then feel it with your heart. Become one with it, but don't ask if you are there or close, because someone who is there or close doesn't need confirmation, and the asking for confirmation means you are stuck int that one place, waiting for an answer.