tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-27560333.post7200990861296379021..comments2023-12-16T16:12:08.051-08:00Comments on Self-Knowledge and Self-Realization: Ramana’s and Nisargadatta’s Differing Concepts of Self-Realization--AMENDED Aug. 14Ed Muzikahttp://www.blogger.com/profile/13214241089861837159noreply@blogger.comBlogger20125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-27560333.post-28585482669853818652016-06-07T06:50:31.359-07:002016-06-07T06:50:31.359-07:00Nice post on the differences. However, both Raman...Nice post on the differences. However, both Ramana and Nisargadatta, map on perfectly to the map provided in Buddhism on the arupa jhanas. Ramana's experience sounds exactly like the "dimension of infinite consciousness" and Nisargadatta's like the "dimension of neither perception nor non-perception." Nisargadatta was definitely more advanced than Ramana. Check out my review here:<br /><br />http://www.amazon.com/gp/review/R1V0WTZF6OSTIF?ref_=glimp_1rv_clAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-27560333.post-84589046659360982452016-04-28T10:36:07.749-07:002016-04-28T10:36:07.749-07:00Just FYI - Ramana Maharshi and Nisargadatta's ...Just FYI - Ramana Maharshi and Nisargadatta's words were both translated into English. Unfortunately, they did not use the same English words for the same thing.<br /><br />For example, Nisargadatta's translator used "Awareness" for the Absolute source, and "Consciousness" for a relative individual awareness (as in the common English sentence "I am conscious of a noise in the room"). However, the usual practice is the opposite - "Chit" = "Consciousness" and awareness is the relative level (as in "I am aware of a noise in the room").<br /><br />For at least two hundred years, the translation of spiritual terms into English has caused major semantic difficulties. The translation of "maya" as "illusion" was a giant setback for comprehension of Eastern spirituality in the West.<br /><br />While Nisargadatta vouched for his translator Maurice Frydman's spiritual understanding, Frydman's English skills and scholarly expertise were not at a high level. (And given the limited number of hours in a lifetime, that's a normal tradeoff.)<br /><br />Ultimately, Ramana Maharshi and Nisargadatta were both sages providing techniques to followers. They were not theologians.<br /><br />If you want a precise description of the nature of the Universe, then you need Kashmir Shaivism (eg Abhinavagupta). Perfect, precise and flawless.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-27560333.post-38812203995729293982015-12-20T08:37:39.259-08:002015-12-20T08:37:39.259-08:00unfortunately in his late teachings Nisargadatta d...unfortunately in his late teachings Nisargadatta deeply fell into intellectualism. A lot of play of words on the unspeakable which don't add anything except confusion. I think people should stick to "I am that".Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-27560333.post-23258283509924259812015-03-03T02:10:45.486-08:002015-03-03T02:10:45.486-08:00Excellent post.Immersed into Nisargadatta's te...Excellent post.Immersed into Nisargadatta's teachings and inspired by Ramana's silence,i really appreciated it,as well as the comments.Thanks to all.<br /> “Forget me, forget Maharaj, even forget the teachings, and just stay in the consciousness, and your own unique path, whatever that may be, will emerge for you.”~Sri Nisargadattakelly alamanouhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10365362646599457235noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-27560333.post-55594650444060122792014-06-14T17:24:01.297-07:002014-06-14T17:24:01.297-07:00I love Ramana, but my life has been consumed by Ni...I love Ramana, but my life has been consumed by Nisargatta's teachings.<br /><br />As a father, I would take my children to the public library and there was a copy of "The Ulimate Medicine" and I would check it out (borrow) it over and over.<br /><br />One of the last times I visited the library with my maturing kids, I checked the book out again and my daughter says: "Dad, why do you keep re-reading that book?"<br /><br />I said, "I don't know. It just never gets old."<br /><br />Ha. Anyway, this present article is excellent. It lays to rest my question of the differences between two jnani's that I respect. <br /><br />I think it is interesting how things have developed or expressed itself as "Consciousness" seeking to know itself.<br /><br />I have a feeling that a billion years ago or a billion years hence, that knowledge will never capture what is and is not.<br /><br />~~ghostwindAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-27560333.post-21160460369767776912013-09-18T03:11:16.082-07:002013-09-18T03:11:16.082-07:00Sir, to each his own. But as far as Advaita is c...Sir, to each his own. But as far as Advaita is concerned, its path is only upto the point of erasing the feeling/sense of 'I am' (without words or thinking) in brain/mind when it is clearly established that consciousness alone is, and contains both the phenomena and the subject. And if one has not followed traditional vedantic practices of purifications, all the older tendencies/needs for food, shelter, comforts, sex and sleep remain intact even after erasing of 'I am', in a much subdued form.<br /><br />Rather, after that, every practioner is free to go his own way. Shankaracharya built temples, monasteries, indulged in Tantra, enjoyed queens of a famous King; Ramana continued living at his Ashram and did all the work relating to it; Nisargadatta continued his house holder life and business work; Siddharameshwar (a renouncer) continued preaching his teachings. Only Ramakrishna Paramhansa reverted back to the path of Bhakti (sainthood) again, after getting Advaita Knowledge because he was an adept saint earlier - it means he also reverted back to his old lifestyle. A Jnani just has to pass his remaining time and for passing his time, nothing is better than his old job/ work / hobbies without any attachment/ passion. When you know that everything is illusion (from the point of view of individual entity), then whether you help the world or just use it, is of no importance. <br /><br />Sorry for taking you time and please pardon my english.<br /> Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-27560333.post-88910359534033004632013-09-13T11:52:41.114-07:002013-09-13T11:52:41.114-07:00Siddharameshwar, Nisargadatta and I teach two seor...Siddharameshwar, Nisargadatta and I teach two seorts of self-realization. The first is as you say; but the second is identification with Turya, the base of Consciousness, which is filled with bliss, energies, knowledge of existence, and existence itself. Maharaj called it Krishna Consciousness. This is the realm of the saint, not the Jnani.<br />Ed Muzikahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13214241089861837159noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-27560333.post-23805290226873639372013-09-13T00:49:59.232-07:002013-09-13T00:49:59.232-07:00Most of the attributes of Self-realisation like O...Most of the attributes of Self-realisation like Oneness, peace, bliss, are the outcomes of long period of study of traditional advaita teachings and conviction arising of such practices. Nisargadatta belonged to the traditional school while Ramana was a free lancer. <br /><br />Self as such is only existence (that too temporary till the body lasts) and recognition (awareness of that existence). Nothing more, nothing less and without any attributes or qualities. <br /><br />In deep sleep, even recognition becomes dormant. Then only existence is. But without recognition, existence is of no use or importance for even existence too. Hence the confusion. The same situation arises in the case of long period of coma or death. <br /><br />In traditional advaita, the goal is to finish the cycle of birth/death, and nothing more which is served well by reaching the stage of consciousness only (Braham as Sat-Chit-Ananda in manifested form). What is there beyond it has not been touched by even the ancient gurus and is only based on inference only. Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-27560333.post-52059251581612373272013-09-10T09:37:11.380-07:002013-09-10T09:37:11.380-07:00"In deep sleep, is there any difference betwe..."In deep sleep, is there any difference between Ramana and Nisargadatta?"<br /><br />Ed: No!Ed Muzikahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13214241089861837159noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-27560333.post-27032954588963965952013-09-09T05:00:52.080-07:002013-09-09T05:00:52.080-07:00In deep sleep, is there any difference between Ram...In deep sleep, is there any difference between Ramana and Nisargadatta? A. H. https://www.blogger.com/profile/15575931333538621870noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-27560333.post-90825745190405051482013-08-20T18:53:11.027-07:002013-08-20T18:53:11.027-07:00Ok Edji. What am meaning is this:
1)There can be ...Ok Edji. What am meaning is this:<br /><br />1)There can be no postulates for any bliss state or any state.<br /><br />2) Experiences of people can be replicated,for example if one tries to follow Siddharameshwar one might go step by step,again there is no guarranty that one ll have the same expereinces.<br /><br />3) By objectivising the ultimate I mean retaining the Subject and stopping there: Usually,most begin with the subject-object separation,then one identifies with the subject,this identification must go too.I think,one can use ontology or philosophical type inquires or questioning and benefit.I was looking for some as Maharajs phraseology was confusing for me,and I found the exact answer in traditioanl vedanta teachings.<br /><br />You have said the same things in your last comment,I think.<br /><br />I think explaining doubts,giving pointers in terms of ontology is not limiting.After all ppl have done this for ages.Without it,where would one start to look? Description on the other hand is totally different.I think all this spiritual business is about looking,it's hardly a theory,also nothing objective to be found.If you want I can give you example from my expereinces,I had written this to you months back,but you never replied and had said that you lost the emails:<br /><br />One example is: I just dont find things as solid,as made of solid mass,rigid.I just dont find things as solid now.I dont see physicality as made of some rigid solid mass.Do you remember Jean Dunn told you the same thing(if i recollect correctly,you had mentioned this long ago,and you had written that it was not ur expereince......something like that).But I still check traffic before crossing the road.I have fellow seekeer buddies here,some of them are in their 60s.....not a single person share the same take on physicality,they just dont see it,it is not their expereince.Rahulnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-27560333.post-56705178460340842802013-08-20T14:12:24.677-07:002013-08-20T14:12:24.677-07:00Rahul, you ought to take more time and rewrite thi...Rahul, you ought to take more time and rewrite this post. Separate the ideas into separate paragraphs.<br /><br />Bliss is not necessary a state or step prior to the ultimate, because sequentially, one can experience it after absorption into the Witness during the return journey.<br /><br />Also, any description of an ontology puts limits on both the speaker and listener. Really, what is ultimateand what is relative outside of a theory?<br />Ed Muzikahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13214241089861837159noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-27560333.post-25489894665520107302013-08-20T11:06:53.538-07:002013-08-20T11:06:53.538-07:00@ AK Even if bliss state is one step before the ul...@ AK Even if bliss state is one step before the ultimate,it is a state,it ll go,this needs to be understood.There is no time when one is not the ultimate,we can have this premise to begin with,or everything would be about becoming and anything we become,we can unbecome.Many seekers waste time in different kind of samadhis just trying to prolong the experience,which is never going to happen.The meditation-inquiry combo type seeking revolves around juicing up consciousness,exploring it,or in other words replicating the experiences if you take the "one step before the ultimate " line.I don't see any postulates.Ultimate when described in terms of bliss,etc is not described in terms of psychological states,it's described in opposition to it's dual opposite,but then it is not the ultimate.When we try to attribute bliss,etc to ultimate,we are actually objectivising it.It's no good in the long run. <br /><br /> Rahulnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-27560333.post-24990802040291481332013-08-15T18:21:13.238-07:002013-08-15T18:21:13.238-07:00No, I didn't say that. Yes others irritated h...No, I didn't say that. Yes others irritated him at times--or it appeared so.<br /><br />But he also said he was done with the world and Consciousness.<br /><br />Robert often said the same thing, even when he was not suffering with cancer.<br />Ed Muzikahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13214241089861837159noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-27560333.post-38442336958823419632013-08-15T09:45:36.593-07:002013-08-15T09:45:36.593-07:00So Ed.....
You're saying in effect he was nev...So Ed.....<br /><br />You're saying in effect he was never pissed based on the observations made by others attending his Satsangs or that any sorts of annoyance/irritation he expressed were tied to his deteriorating physical condition when the cancer was more advanced?<br /><br />MarkAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-27560333.post-69803372865470790542013-08-14T22:09:19.793-07:002013-08-14T22:09:19.793-07:00That is not true. Read his last 3 books by Jean D...That is not true. Read his last 3 books by Jean Dunn. Over and over he says he is done with consciousness. So was Robert Adams. In fact, he is quite clear in his last quote above:<br /><br /> Nisargadatta: My present state is such that this consciousness and all this physical suffering are unbearable. I am prepared to dispose of it right now. Nevertheless, people come here and these talks emanate out of the consciousness. I am addressing you as consciousness; you are the Godly consciousness. <br /><br /> I am telling you about the consciousness. In my true state, if I had been aware of consciousness at the moment the body formation was taking place, I would have rejected it. But at that highest state such knowledge is not there and this body formation and consciousness are both spontaneous.Ed Muzikahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13214241089861837159noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-27560333.post-32535058993923820622013-08-14T21:47:13.378-07:002013-08-14T21:47:13.378-07:00I could answer that based on commentary made about...I could answer that based on commentary made about Maharaj and they may not at all have had some "agenda" which biased their viewpoints when they were in his company.<br /><br />Maharaj seemed to express an annoyance or irritation with people whom he felt were foolishly existing in a state of almost sublime ignorance but who he judged should know better and therefore had to be vehemently awakened from this ignorance, requiring that he dispense with all politeness. His level of tolerance then wasn't especially what one might expect of a "typical" spiritual guide. In fact, he made one quote(which I'm paraphrasing)that his words would tear people's concepts about spirituality to shreds.<br /><br />So to get back to your last question, he wasn't pissed with life or people in general. He was pissed on those occasions when(as I explained above) he felt that bouts of anger and rudeness justified the kind of response he directed at them based on his perception of where they were at(as if to say, "the ends justified the means").<br /><br />MarkAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-27560333.post-55878663956083714072013-08-14T14:19:01.256-07:002013-08-14T14:19:01.256-07:00What was Robert's take on that?
Didn't Ra...What was Robert's take on that?<br /><br />Didn't Ramana suggest to his students that the "bliss state" of "Self Realization" was one step before the ultimate? The ultimate being that sweet delicious peace that passeth all understanding, far beyond the (almost unbearable/almost annoying) bliss?<br /><br />As far as Ramesh"s teacher maharaji is concerned: wasn't he really pissed with life and (at times- or most of the time) with people in general??A Knoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-27560333.post-86281101398631933132013-08-12T21:12:29.422-07:002013-08-12T21:12:29.422-07:00Wow, this is such a clear and honest dissection of...Wow, this is such a clear and honest dissection of two great teachings! Very puzzling from an aspirants standpoint to understand what Ramana and N. are getting at. I like that you include the practical side of their teachings, instead of just finishing with theory. I need to know how to apply these things and I really appreciate how often you bring theory to practice. I hope to one day see these teachings in a similar way to how you must see them, with a knowingness and a direct experience. Thank you for these posts, Edji! I feel your sincere attempts at bringing us out of confusion. Thank you!<br /><br />richAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-27560333.post-16976128597015921512013-08-11T13:32:12.618-07:002013-08-11T13:32:12.618-07:00Ho-ly-shit-Ed!
Amazing post! I am dumbfounded.
...Ho-ly-shit-Ed!<br /><br />Amazing post! I am dumbfounded. <br /><br />Mukti!<br /><br />Such force and clarity, presentations of these other Muktis I did not fully comprehend. Thanks so much! <br /><br />Also you so clearly chiseled away the chaff and presented what I was trying grab hold of--and present: even for the seeming awakened, reality/liberation is not what is seems... the fullness without limit or other... BAck to the breathe--Ramana and Nisaradatta--inhalation/exhalation--not seperate but necessary part of the full, full dynamic, who cares where you stop to rest. We can all hold our breathe, but we have to breathe, breathe! Liberation as inhalation or just exhalation are not satisfying in themsleves--I Agree! cause they are not complemented, not complete, so not one, not SELF! its the full cycle of breathe, as it, watching it, abiding with it that is complete--of course--that, that is SELF!<br /><br />Hell ya Edji!<br />Amazing!Ed Muzikahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13214241089861837159noreply@blogger.com